Session 7: Pantoum

[dustandwater]

After the Villanelle, Ghazal and Tanka, this week I'm introducing another form with its roots in foreign language.

The Pantoum is often considered to be French; however, the form actually originated in Malaya and was most notably introduced to France by the French writer, Victor Hugo. In 1829, Hugo wrote Les Orientales, in which he commented on the Malay poetic form, pantun berkait. He published the first original French version of the form, written by Ernest Fouinet.

The Pantoum was later popularised in Europe and America by further works of Fouinet and Hugo as well as those of Theodore de Banville and John Ashbery through the nineteenth and into the twentieth century.

The Pantun began as a spoken verse but has existed as a written form since the fifteenth century, when examples first appeared in the Malay Annals. It is in fact a variation of this form that influenced the Pantoum. The Malay name of this variation, Pantun Berkait, alludes to the interwoven structure of the form, which we will come to shortly. This repetitive structure was particularly popular because, being a spoken form originally, repetition made it easier for audiences to follow. Traditionally, Pantun are poems of love and romance.

The modern Pantoum uses quatrains - there is no limit to the length of a Pantoum but each stanza after the first takes a combination of two lines from the preceding stanza and repeats as a rolling refrain, with the final stanza recalling lines from the first.

Line-length and metre for the Pantoum is free, though Pantun in their original Malay used lines of between 8 and 12 syllables.

Here is the format for a four stanza Pantoum (using four quatrians). You will see here that this utilises 8 original lines within the total 16 lines:

A1
B1
A2
B2

B1
C1
B2
C2

C1
D1
C2
D2

D1
A2
D2
A1

Here, letters and numbers indicate where to repeat lines and for an extra challenge, you can make like letters rhyme. The final stanza uses only refrains, two from the previous stanza and then two from the first (Lines 1 and 3), which are used in reverse so that the first line of the poem and the last are the same.

Let's take a look at an example:

The night I tried to kill myself
You came into my room and wept
for me.  The beauty of your longing
held me like a plaintive song.

You came into my room and wept,
suffering my suffering,
and held me like a plaintive song
'til I myself became your sun.

Suffering my suffering,
you taught me well the source of pain
'til I myself became your sun,
shining on the world back home.

You taught me well the source of pain:
for me, the beauty of your longing,
shining on the world back home
the night I tried to kill myself.

It's important to note that the words of repeated lines must not change but meaning can (and should) be shifted. This can be done by altering punctuation or exploiting semantics, through double meanings, for example.

And now for one of my own:

A1 Before you take me to your bed,
B1 before you kiss my lips,
A2 before you even hold my hand,
B2 I have to tell you this.

B1 Before you kiss my lips,
C1 listen to me, please;
B2 I have to tell you this:
C2 I never knew how to love.

C1 Listen to me. Please,
D2 look into my eyes.
C2 I never knew how to love...
D2 before you.

D1 Look into my eyes
A2 before you even hold my hand,
D2 before you -
A1 before you take me to your bed.

So go on, give it a go.

A little tip: build in the refrains as you go so that the skeleton forms ahead of you; that should make things a little easier.

Aaaaaand theyyy're off!

[Fire Monkey]

This is a form I have written before - in fact I posted it on this site, so I thought I'd repost my previous poem to help get things going here and then I'd start working on a new one. I found it to be a fun style.

Pantoumic toves
The Toves came by again last night
To rant and rave at me
But what they asked they had no right
As any fool could see

To rant and rave at me
It's pointless as I could not say
As any fool could see
And if I could I wouldn't anyway

Its pointless as I could not say
I do not talk with Toves
And if I could I wouldn't anyway
As everybody knows

I do not talk with Toves
They always treat me with contempt
As everybody knows
They just came barging in my tent

Demanding that I tell them things
But what they asked they had no right
Lording around as if they're kings
The Toves came by again last night

Copyright June 14, 2010 by Timothy Emil Birch

[dustandwater]

Fire Monkey,

well done for being the first to participate. Well done for a great poem, too. I like that you have the rhyme in here. I did a rhymed one but wasn't very happy with the outcome, so well done.

Can I assume that the 'Toves' of your poem are the same as the Toves in The Jabberwocky? If so, bonus points as it's one of my favourite poems.

Your final stanza has two original lines where it should incorporate the lines from the previous stanza along with two from the first stanza.

Also, a semantic point: There are times when it seems like you don't know the answer to their question and times when it seems like you are choosing not to tell them. Consider:

I could not say vs. They had no right/I do not talk with Toves.

This was a really enjoyable read and the theme suits the repetition very well; the poet, Joyce Carol Oates noted that the form is "marvelously suited for conveying extreme states of mind - mania, paranoia, delusion. . .", which I think you have demonstrated very well here.

Hope to see you back here with a new piece soon!

-D&W

[dustandwater]

After Fire Monkey's excellent response, here is a rhymed piece of my own while we wait for other responses.

Single Beat

I fell in love in a single beat,
just a flicker of a smile;
I always knew we'd meet,
though we only spoke a while.

Just a flicker of a smile,
I was lost in you.
Though we only spoke a while,
afterwards, I knew:

I was lost in you
before I even knew your name.
Afterwards, I knew
you'd set my heart aflame.

Before I even knew your name,
I always knew we'd meet;
you'd set my heart aflame.
I fell in love in a single beat.

-D&W

[Fire Monkey]

Hmmm, interesting - I wrote my poem a while back when I first encountered the form and I used the pattern as laid out by what was purported to be a reliably source for poetic styles. I'm not questioning your source at all, just wondering about the difference. I suppose that it might be that one of the sources got it wrong but I suspect it is more likely that both are right - that is to say, one form may be older and at some point the style was modified ... my suspicion is that when the French adopted the style they made a modification to it with regards to the last stanza - I suspect this because I have come across a number of things over the years which the French embraced from that area and they seem to have a thing about slightly modifying things to make it more their own but I don't really know for sure and unfortunately I don't know off hand what the site was that I used for my information.

As it happens though, looking back on my poem, I believe that the last stanza can be changed to fit the pattern you have posted without any problem - happily it works nicely with the two lines from the previous stanza.

My new poem will follow the pattern as you have posted [sorry for not having read the pattern over before posting - since I thought I had the correct pattern already, there didn't seem to be a need and besides, the poem had already been written ]

As for the point about semantics - actually, when I wrote the poem my thought had been that I neither felt that I should answer [they have no right] nor did I actually have an answer to give even if I wanted to - after all, the two statements are not mutually exclusive

Oh, and yes, the Toves are indeed the ones you suspected. It happens that I woke up one day with the first two lines in my head [don't know what I had been dreaming but.....] and I jotted them down but had no idea what to do with them - later I heard about Pantoums and it seemed the perfect style to expand on that opening.

[Fire Monkey]

I think your pantoum is good - it is a tricky style to get but a fun one to work with. Myself, I would say it is best for humourous poems, but you have done a nice job at something romantic.

[Fire Monkey]

Here is a new pantoum - I believe I have got the pattern right in this one - also, I decided to go for something more serious rather than another humourous poem. {I have modified this by added punctuation for clarity}

Of You
within the deepness of my soul,
I have found you living there
in my dreams - a burning coal
passion filled, a feeling rare

I have found you living there
the sweetness of it fills my heart
passion filled, a feeling rare
I do not know just how to start

the sweetness of it fills my heart
though what we say may not be heard
I do not know just how to start
this feeling, more than any word

though what we say may not be heard
it matters not what others say,
this feeling, more than any word,
keeps me warm through night till day

it matters not what others say,
in my dreams - a burning coal
keeps me warm through night till day
within the deepness of my soul.

Copyright November 8, 2011 by Timothy Emil Birch

[Brigid Briton]

Hi d&w and Tim,

I think both of your pantoums are great! My mind gets so befuddled by these (for me) complicated rhyming schemes that I'll really have to think about this one.

d&w: even though participation seems to be pretty scarce right now, except for the excellent contributions by Tim, don't despair. I'm sure people will find there way here. I really appreciate all the time you put into bringing us a new form every week. Even if we don't get a lot of participation right away, remember that this thread and the others will be here as a "reference library" for anyone who wants to learn about the various different forms in the future.

Thanks to both of you!

[dustandwater]

Fire Monkey,

thanks for your considered reply.

Regarding the difference in form, the one I posted here is the earliest version as taken from the Malay Pantun Berkait (Being a speaker of Indonesian I can tell you that berkait essentially means interconnected) but since the Pantun first became the Pantoum, there have indeed been many variations. Some forego the final stanza's callback of the first refrain (this is referred to as an 'imperfect' Pantoum) while others choose to only use the last word or few of a line for the refrain (similar to the Ghazal's refrain). Also, as I mentioned in my Intro, the rhyme is optional; I'm sure many more variations exist.

Also, regarding your point about humour, Love is the most traditional subject matter but the form is well recognised as one which lends itself to humour because the pattern of repetition can seem to expose an essence of mania. I quoted Joyce Carol Oates in my earlier comment to you and she goes one to say that, "If successful, the pantoum comes across as a comic form".

Your second piece is another great write and you've gone again for a rhymer; well done!

I'd take another scan of it and amend slightly for punctuation; it might benefit from a few more commas and maybe the odd dash. Examples:

end line 1 with a comma
Line 15 '…feeling<comma>…word<comma>'

Punctuation is quite important in the Pantoum as playing around with it is the only way one should alter the repeated lines.

Two poems: Great work!

-D&W

[Fire Monkey]

Thanks Bridget - I think rhyme is something that comes hard to some and easier to others, like math, it depends on how your mind works if it is confusing or not. For me, I actually find that not rhyming is the harder job, which is not to say that I don't sometimes paint myself into a corner and have to go back and rethink either may wording or the choice of words, but in most cases I find that rhyme actually helps me to better express myself because the thoughts flow more smoothly when I rhyme. I do however like to include the option for 'soft' or 'imperfect' rhymes - things that actually don't rhyme in the strictest sense but have the feel of a rhyme such as near rhymes like "hour" and "for".

D&W - I suspected with form that it might be something like that. That'll teach me to go posting before reading carefully even if I think I already have the information.

You know, I keep telling people that there is likely more incorrect information on the internet than correct information and so you should not assume that anything you read on the net is right, but do I listen to myself? Oh well, now I know - thanks.

I'm a Finn [by heritage] and that means I have a trait the Finns call sisu - which as my grandfather used to explain it means that we are pig-headed stubborn but while we do things our own way, we still keep listening to find out if we might be wrong - and if we are, we change and become just as stubborn about that as we were in the first place. Actually I'm failing here with the sisu because the idea is that we aren't supposed to ever admit we were wrong, instead we adopt the new information and act as if that is exactly what we said the whole time ;D - well, I can admit that I have changed my stand, I guess that must be the Canadian influence

I'll take a look and see what I can do about the punctuation - I tend to either use punctuation a lot in my poems or hardly at all - never seem to find that cozy middle ground, but if I can improve the poem with a bit of punctuation, I'll give it a try. Just to be clear, from what you said I gather that when a line is repeated the punctuation does not have to be the same each time? If I have that right then I guess you can greatly change the meaning of the line while keeping the same words - that is an interesting thought to play with - a shift in a comma can make such a huge shift in meaning so if that is allowed it would be possible to build an entire poem on exploring how a few words might change over time as situations change. Have to think on that. I really like learning new things - oh, and if I have gotten that point wrong, please correct me.

[heatherwordbender]

I confess, this form, for me, was much like algebra...I verge on getting it and yet it completely eludes me, lol. Blargh. Not very pleased with my results...almost it follows the rules, but ick.

That night, long past, I blithely slept
And outside more than storms did rage
Bitter losses barely conceived
Sorrows waiting in the wings

And outside more than storms did rage
And my love paid the ultimate price
Sorrow waiting in the wings
That he should never see his son

And my love paid the ultimate price
He left to buy us a late night treat
That he should never see his son
Fire consumed wife and unborn child

He left to buy us a late night treat
His bitter losses barely conceived
Fire consumed wife and unborn child
That night, long past, I blithely slept

-----------------------------------------

That night, long past, I blithely slept
And outside more than storms did rage
Bitter losses bare conceived
And sorrows waited in the wings

And outside more than storms did rage
And my love paid the ultimate price
Sorrows waited in the wings
That he should never see his son

And my love paid the ultimate price
And inside flames came licking fast
That he should never see his son
That toxic smoke still closer crept

And inside flames came licking fast
And choking, I less blithely slept
That toxic smoke still closer crept
Consumed us, his wife and unborn child

And choking, I less blithely slept
And he off buying late night treats
Fire consumed us, his wife and unborn child
Once smoke sent us into deeper sleep

And he off buying late night treats
And blithely, family on his mind
Once smoke sent us into deeper sleep
He returned to loss and more than loss

And blithely, family on his mind
And bitter losses bare conceived
He returned to loss and more than loss
That night, long past, I blithely slept

Well. I could not retrofit FM's rhyme. But I did something. Which I rather like. In spite of its being nearly the opposite of D&W's recommendation regarding "that one spot"

[dustandwater]

Fire Monkey,

yes; you are right about the punctuation. The words should stay the same but the punctuation can be altered.

Therefore, as you say, meaning can be shifted drastically if done right. I also want to play around with that but it's a big ask and I haven't sat down properly in a while to actually think about it.

-D&W

[Fire Monkey]

I shall see if I can do something with that as soon as I have a bit of time but first I have another I want to write but haven't had the time to sit down and start so all I have is the idea of it - with luck I might get some time tonight.

[diannet]

Okey dokey, here I go again...a pantoum Okay! I decided to take a line from a poem by Christina Georgina Rossetti...The Goblin Market and thought I could weave a pantoum around it...Of course I have probably made a complete hash of it but I wanted to give it a go!


She dropped a tear more rare than pearl
For those goblins in the glen
Selling fruits most glorious and raw
Such delights in the haunted mists

For those goblins in the glen
Enticed many a farmer’s daughter
Such delights in the haunted mists
Poisoned by dangerous fruits

Enticed many a farmer’s daughter
Who offered themselves up to the heather
Poisoned by the dangerous fruits
Where the daisies refused to dance

Who offered themselves up to the heather
Selling fruits most glorious and raw
Where the daisies refused to dance
She dropped a tear more rare than pearl



I really did love your rhyming pantoum D&W very well done, now I know what a mind storm these pantoums create. OH and Of You... Fire Monkey gorgeous love the burning coal. To all well done who have had a shot!!!

Here's the same poem with six verses, I thought that might help it make it a little better

She dropped a tear more rare than pearl
For those goblins in the glen
Selling fruits most glorious and raw
Such delights in the haunted mists

For those goblins in the glen
Enticed many a farmer’s daughter
Such delights in the haunted mists
For those who offered themselves to the heather

Enticed many a farmer’s daughter
To be poisoned by the dangerous fruits
For those who offered themselves to the heather
Where the daisies refused to dance

To be poisoned by dangerous fruits
Left lifeless, raw yet undying
Where the daisies refused to dance
Ghosts of innocence floating in the night

Left lifeless, raw yet undying
Selling fruits most glorious and raw
Ghosts of innocence floating in the night
She dropped a tear more rare than pearl

[Fire Monkey]

Thanks Diannet - and good for you as well ... it is not easy tackling unfamiliar styles and the pantoum is not as simple as it might look at the start

I'm really enjoying this form - I personally don't believe that all forms work well in English, many styles of poetry are, in my opinion, linked solidly to the nature of the language they come from and do not work well in languages that are significantly different, but the pantoum is, I feel, well suited to English in spite of that.

Ok, I promised another [and after this I'm going to see if I can do something with changing punctuation to alter the meaning of the words - no promises on that one!]

Through It All
We fell in love, that is all that I know,
no matter what happens it will remain,
When we were young, just a while ago,
my heart made a choice that shall never wain

No matter what happens it will remain,
though our life has not been always so kind,
my heart made a choice that shall never wain
if I am with you, then I do not mind

Though our life has not been always so kind,
in better or worse it is all the same,
if I am with you then I do not mind,
I am at your side in health or in pain

In better or worse it is all the same
though some may question or say it is wrong,
I am at your side in health or in pain
I do not care about what says the throng

Though some may question or say it is wrong,
nothing has changed from what I remember,
I do not care about what says the throng,
this shall remain til life's cold December

Nothing has changed from what I remember,
When we were young, just a while ago,
this shall remain til life's cold December
We fell in love, that is all that I know,

[dustandwater]

Heather, thanks for joining in.

I'd make a few small changes:

'while outside more than storms did rage'
'my love paid the ultimate price'

Semantically, these work better I think and also fit the reprise better.

I like the story you're driving after; there's a very strong sentiment here. I think you need a little more room to let the story play out though, so I would recommend adding another couple of stanzas to avoid seeming forced.

Also, I like this enough to read much longer, so I say see what you can do with it.

-D&W

[heatherwordbender]

Thank you for the input. I can definitely see how fleshing out a bit would smooth it and make the transitions less abrupt. Oddly enough, I really like the repetition of 'and' as a start for those two lines, though I see what you mean by changing the first to while (even though the preceding usage is 'and') It makes it feel to me like a stream of consciousness reminiscing...I'll think about your suggestion but I'd like to suss what it is that makes me prefer the 'and' repetitions before I do anything to alter it.

And...I'll see about adding a smidge.

[Fire Monkey]

Somehow I missed your poem, Heather, but seeing D&W's comment I went back to find it. I like it, though I agree with D&W that it would be better if longer - I'd suggest seeing if you could add at least 3 more stanzas - a bit tricky when each verse contains a bit of the previous one, but I think it would be worth the effort. As for the "and" issue - I didn't find myself bothered by the two lines starting with "and" even though that is generally frowned on, but the suggested change to "while outside...." does have some merit. I think you are wise to try and see why you are drawn to "and" instead whether you change it or not - it is always good to understand those sorts of things so that we can work out the pros and cons in our mind and make the choice which best suits our expression.

The story is compelling and deserves time to be fully explored. I do really like it. That said, one personal note, I find that rhyme adds to the form and helps draw the reader on - I know that rhyme is not the most popular thing here but I really believe that well done rhyme adds rather than detracts from the flow and the feeling of the poem - no, I'm not suggesting you go back and make it all rhyme - that would be asking a bit much, just an observation.

[Fire Monkey]

I have tried to write something that uses changed punctuation effectively but I fear it is eluding me - I can only seem to come up with things that are rather trite and not worth doing. Perhaps now that I have stopped trying, something will pop into my head and I'll find what I was looking for ;D

In the mean time, I wrote another pantoum tonight, though I wish we could get more people joining in, but then, I can't really talk as I have not exactly joined in on most of these things - I guess we all find forms that we like or ones we are willing to tackle at least once. This time I decided to not do another love poem nor a silly one:

A Young Knight Errant
a young boy hides high in the trees
apart from all the things he knows
looking down on the world he sees
he ponders all his earthly woes

apart from all the things he knows
a world of anger, hate and fear
he ponders all his earthly woes
and to his eye there comes a tear

a world of anger, hate and fear
devoid of love and actions kind
and to his eye there comes a tear
a better way he swears he'll find

devoid of love and actions kind
there is no point to going on
a better way he swears he'll find
and so that mantle he will don

there is no point to going on
unless at windmills he will tilt
and so that mantle he will don
until a better world is built

unless at windmills he will tilt
to right the wrongs which fill the world
until a better world is built
his gauntlet to the ground he hurled

to right the wrongs which fill the world
he does resolve to take the stand
his gauntlet to the ground he hurled
as carefully his path he planned

he does resolve to take the stand
looking down on the world he sees
as carefully his path he planned
a young boy hides high in the trees

Copyright November 11, 2011 by Timothy Emil Birch

[heatherwordbender]

Ooof. Rhyme too?? Thanks for the input. This form was difficult for me in a way none of the others has been and, while I like the idea I've come up with, it does feel clunky to me. As possibly you've guessed, I'm not much of a rhymer. I enjoy it. But almost always end up feeling my rhymes are a bit cliche. That said, internal and irregular rhyme might be very effective here.

(I had completely missed the 'outside' portion of D&Ws add...hmmm)

I'm just not sure how much I can swing, lol. My brain hurts! Fabulous that you have managed, what is it? 3 now?

***adding -Yes! The punctuation change/segue in meaning thing...THAT is a challenge! Rrrgh.